About this podcast episode

⏫ Making the shift from an individual contributor to a leader

In today’s podcast, Luke Pivac, Delivery Lead at Westpac and author of An Agile Playbook for Technical Communicators, joins the podcast. Luke shares valuable lessons that will help new or aspiring leaders transition from a role as an individual agile team contributor.

Luke and Bill share stories and advice that will resonate with you to grow and improve your leadership skills. If you are a leader hiring or promoting team members, you will find this conversation invaluable to provide a successful transition for that new role!

âś… Working above the waterline to emphasize the importance of strategic thinking and leadership in Agile environments

âś… Bridging communication gaps by translating complex technical solutions into business impacts

âś… Adapting to unexpected changes while maintaining agile values

🎉 Advice for Aspiring Agile Leaders stepping into new leadership roles


(transcripts are auto-generated, so please excuse the brevity)

[00:00:00] Introduction and Guest Presentation

Bill Raymond: Hi, and welcome to the Agile in Action podcast with Bill Raymond. Today, Luke Pivac, who is the author of An Agile Playbook for Technical Communicators is joining us, and we’re going to talk about working above the waterline, and we’ll learn a little bit more what that means shortly. Hi, Luke. How are you doing today?

Luke Pivac: Hi, Bill. Yeah, good. Thanks. It’s really great. I’m talking, coming from you from sunny Auckland, New Zealand. And yeah, everything’s going great here. How are you?

Bill Raymond: Great. A little bit of a wet San Francisco for me. Could you share a little bit about yourself for people who may not know you?

Luke Pivac: Yeah, of course. Thanks for the opportunity as well getting me to join you a very interesting and great podcast. I wanted to tell your listeners about myself. My name is Luke Pivac as your listeners will already know, I’m from Auckland, New Zealand I’m currently working as a delivery lead in the banking industry. I’ve been working in what people call IT since 2008. I started out as a technical writer working at a marine electronics company called Navico. And the technical communication for about probably five to seven years and I eventually worked as a Scrum Master and then became a workflow lead and then now I’m a delivery manager and in between those times I was working as a project manager and consultancy in agencies for a couple of years and yeah Agile’s been part of my life since 2014 when I got my Scrum Master certification from https://scrum.org. And yeah, I’ve lived and breathed agility for much of my time the past 10 years. It’s been a great experience and I’d love to share it with you guys.

Bill Raymond: Yeah. I’m looking forward to it.

[00:01:41] Understanding Agile: Luke’s Perspective

Bill Raymond: And I think that leads us well into the next question, which is what does Agile mean to you?

Luke Pivac: I think Agile to me is about working with people together collaboratively to solve really hard problems one chunk or one bite size at a time. And it’s about. Being an active listener and embracing servant leadership, putting others first and leading a team of very talented people to work on problem solving very complex things by using simple techniques, such as breaking things down, working together.

Luke Pivac: The thing about agility that I love is. That, team ethos. And although you can do a lot of this in waterfalls, the great thing about agility to me is, working together in small bursts of time and reflecting and having a look at that, what you’ve done, what you did well, and then, having that Brainstorm session about what you can do better and then picking up the tools and doing it again and constantly reviewing your work, inspecting and adapting as you go.

Luke Pivac: It’s really quite amazing and I like how it aligns with a lot of scientific methods about like empirical metrics, which is, you can only know or forecast what you’ve done from based on past work. And agility seems to be a great rhythm and cadence to do that. And it makes sense to me.

Luke Pivac: Especially a lot of thought leaders now using agility to get things done working together as a team. It’s very empowering to me and gets me excited. So that’s what I love about agility.

Bill Raymond: I really love that. And you know, that’s what our podcast is all about. You know, a lot of times people say, well, Agile, that’s the thing that we tried, and it didn’t work out. I noticed you even said you’re a Scrum Master earlier, but you never talked about any process or any specific canned way of doing things.

Bill Raymond: You talk about how you work together and collaborate as teams and embrace servant leadership and make sure that you get things done quickly so that you can test it. I really appreciate all of that because that’s very often confused with, oh, we tried to implement some sort of a process that didn’t work.

[00:03:55] Luke’s Journey from Technical Writer to Scrum Master

Luke Pivac: Yeah, I think I learned earlier on I worked at a small startup company in 2014 as a technical writer, but there was some conflict between the developers at the time and the testers, they weren’t yinging and yanging so they said, oh, you’re a technical writer, you’ve got communication as part of your profession, do you mind being the Scrum Master?

Luke Pivac: And I went okay, it sounds interesting, what’s needed to be involved? And I did a bit of research and I realized it was more than role calling and how you what are you doing today and what are you doing tomorrow so I asked my boss to go on a two day Scrum Master course and I realized that, In this untested environment, I could actually apply some structure to a non-structured environment.

Luke Pivac: But I learned quite quickly within six months that running these teams, it’s not just, applying that structure, but actually, getting people involved and, getting them on the same page. So it was, there was a lot of trials and tribulations. It’s not just having a scrum structure of, having a daily stand up, that routine is really good, but it’s actually about empowering the people to find those little delights, little insights, and that is about basically getting people to do some work and then testing it and then reflecting back on that and going through that day in, day out.

Luke Pivac: And through that routine through that robust, framework that people learned quite quickly and it wasn’t just about capturing what you’ve got, but actually implementing it. Getting those actions from your retrospectives and putting them into the backlog so the team can prioritize and then, run forward with it.

Luke Pivac: Yeah, that’s been that was a really fantastic, enjoyable, and humbling experience. And from that I realized that my leadership maturity excelled quite a way and I it gelled for me and I got excited to get out of bed in the morning again, not just being a technical writer, but being a Scrum Master and it became my passion very quickly.

Bill Raymond: Right.

[00:05:48] Concept of Working Above the Waterline

Bill Raymond: And I think that leads us really well into the discussion that you wanted to have, which was to talk about working above the waterline. What do you mean by that?

Luke Pivac: Working above the waterline, it’s it’s what do we call a metaphor for the different levels of awareness and agility. So, you could, let’s say if you’re below the waterline, it’s the teamwork. It’s the ethos of it’s working with your scrum team. It’s working with your developers. It’s working with your Scrum Master, working with your product owner on those sprint goals and checking your velocity. It’s the teamwork that you do every day. And there’ll be a lot of tactical decision making. But when you raise yourself above the waterline, it’s more about the leadership.

Luke Pivac: A lot of, pure agile people don’t believe that there should be project managers that don’t believe there should be these.

Luke Pivac: Different kind of aspects that you get in traditional waterfalls environments. But those people are there, but they just, they are above the waterline. You still need people to have a budget to sign that budget off. We’ve all got people to answer to. And those people, if you can expand yourself from the waterline to above the waterline and start thinking strategically with these people that need to run the budgets that need to do risk management that need to keep the lights on every day.

Luke Pivac: It can be quite empowering, and it gives you, not just a helicopter view, but a big picture view of of what’s going ahead. This stage of being above the waterline, it’s it’s about setting direction. It’s about making strategic decisions. It’s about providing guidance, not just to your team, but to the wider team.

Luke Pivac: So, it could be fellow Scrum Masters. It could be, it could be the agile coaches. It could be the product owners, the product managers and it’s also about not just setting your own vision but looking at the organizational vision and aligning to that. That’s what I mean about being above the waterline.

Luke Pivac: It’s about not just being immersed in your own world, but, having the skills and capability to think strategically and see what’s happening above. And that’s where the magic does happen because you need to get a lot of alignment. And it’s really important to have that mindset, especially if you’re in a regulatory or a compliant environment. Communicating with your superiors and demonstrating your ability to take on more responsibility as you grow as a Scrum Master, as you grow as an agile specialist, will lead you into being a really proactive servant leader and a strategic one as well.

Bill Raymond: Yeah, I think that’s important. You know, we often talk about how you might grow in your team from, let’s say, from being, if you will, a contributing team member, whatever you want to call that role to someone that is more in the leadership perspective.

[00:08:30] Bridging the Gap: Communicating with Leadership

Bill Raymond: So maybe a Scrum Master or a project manager and, but very often the communication starts and stops with the team and what you’re talking about here is going further than that and talking to other team members and leadership in the organization and very often we can have a very different language, can’t we? I mean when you’re talking about your objectives and they’re talking about their objectives, they could be very different.

Bill Raymond: For example, I know that when I work, in, product Teams. People talk about their objectives as releasing some sort of a new feature, making sure that this customer need is met verifying and validating that their code is of good quality. But then when you talk to leadership and you tell them all these things, it almost feels like they’re not hearing you.

Bill Raymond: Well, the challenge here is that they’re, they might be hearing you, but you’re not talking in their language in that they want to understand how that’s going to affect the bottom line or prevent the next security attack. I think you use the word bigger picture and, and very often that’s where we see some of those disconnects happen.

Bill Raymond: Having that understanding, that shared understanding as to who we are and our roles and what our objectives are goes a long way towards, if you will, improving how we all work together.

Luke Pivac: Absolutely. As you were conversing with me then a couple of things came to mind and it’s especially working under the waterline with your team, we’ve all got to write user stories, we’ve all got to do planning and some of that communication about writing a user story, as a user, I need to do something like this so I can do this.

Luke Pivac: That’s all about having a business perspective, a customer perspective. And I think a lot of. The work that we do under the waterline within the teams. It does come to surface and it’s already there. Like I was saying, the role-based user story script and having defining your goal in plain language.

Luke Pivac: I remember when I was a Scrum Master working in my current role, we had problems communicating epics to people outside of our team or even our service group or squad. And, It bears to mind if you’re stuck in an elevator and you’re in there with the CEO and they ask you what you’re working on that’s the way I pitched that elevator pitch.

Luke Pivac: It’s that’s a really good script for writing your epic. So, this is for somebody so that we can do this and the value is this. It will provide further benefits into it. And that’s where you can put it in the description. What are the short-term benefits, the short, long term goals?

Luke Pivac: What’s your, what are you trying to do in this allotted time? And that’s a really good place to start to try and communicate with people above the waterline and outside of your squad or your service group or your sprint team. And, I think if we can put things into plain language, speak them in active words, and use one of those scripts like the user story or the elevator pitch, we’ll be in a better way to frame the talk and a better way of simplifying the language that you can have a shared understanding with and half the time, when you’re doing a roadshow or you’re doing a Okay.

Luke Pivac: You’re doing a presentation or in a review and you might have lost the audience if you took you’re going to take so you just got to think about what’s the value you’re bringing to the business by doing this work and I don’t think it unreasonable to think in that way because even technical people need you need to justify what you’re doing, whether you’re refactoring some work or you are moving to a different platform. Why are you moving to a platform? What’s the business case? There’s always that kind of rationale behind it. And if you can get those into words that people can understand, you’re halfway there with trying to get, the work that excites you and gets done and adding that value to the customer. It’s a really good way to amplify and move forward with.

[00:12:28] The Consultant Experience: A Different Perspective

Bill Raymond: As you’ve made the shift to taking on more of a leadership position and working with leaders, what are some of the experiences that you’ve had and, how does that conversation shift?

Luke Pivac: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think like I mentioned earlier, I worked in agencies, or I was a consultant for a couple of years and I came out straight from being a Scrum Master and my new role I went into was Scrum Master slash project manager.

Luke Pivac: There’s nothing more humbling than, explaining to your client, your stakeholder, why you’ve gone over budget, especially when, if you’re a Scrum Master and project manager and I do appreciate that there’s a conflict between those two roles, but sometimes when you’re in a small boutique agency, you’ve got to put on multiple hats and the great thing about that is that it gave me a more humbling experience, not just working in product, but working for the client and working for the business, you’ve got to wear many hats and you’re more accountable for the budget and the well-being of others.

Luke Pivac: For me, that was quite humbling. And then coming back into product development and working for a bigger organization, I had more experience and more perspectives and different points of view and I believe that was a great experience and it moved me ahead of a lot of my counterparts and, what I can expect and what, the boundaries that we have, what we can do as opposed to, oh, we can’t do that, we can’t do this. There’s always a, where there’s a will, there’s a way. And I think having different experiences of those, perspectives gives you an appreciation for other people’s points of view, which I think is healthy.

Bill Raymond: I remembered I was in a meeting with my manager at my last full-time job for quite some time was he sat down with me and he said, Bill, I feel like you’re a consultant.

Bill Raymond: And you should go try doing that. And he said, I’m not trying to fire you. I’m not letting you go anything like that, but I suggest that you consider it. And he actually had me talk to a few people and I did that. And it’s really going outside your comfort zone, but I will tell you, it’s very different being a consultant versus an employee, and one of the things that you and I talked about at length before we did this recording for this podcast is the fact that when you have a client and you’re the consultant, the communications are very often very different. If you’re an employee, people say, I’ve hired you for the long term. I want to help you grow. I’m going to provide you the capability to find new opportunities in the business.

Bill Raymond: If you’re a consultant, they’re saying, we’re hiring you to do this thing. I’m going to be on top of you all the time. I’m going to point to you as the person that needs to get these things done. And you very much feel on the spot all of the time. And you learn pretty quickly, not only how to build a thick skin, but also the way in which you need to communicate with these people that are managing your budget.

Luke Pivac: Yeah, absolutely. I was at an agency and then COVID redundancies came through. So, I had to go contracting for a number of months and I contracted for a New Zealand health company here during the COVID times. And what was humbling about that was, I was on a rolling monthly contract.

Luke Pivac: So I had to perform and, there was us and I had 30 DevOps people, looking at me for leadership and I was speaking with, the current bosses at the time and they were indicating to me, we need to try this and, this was COVID and we’re working from home quite remotely, but they gave me the room and the trust to try a few things that I thought might work and through some trial and error, they did.

Luke Pivac: Long story short was that one thing I noticed during that pressing time was especially me being a contractor that they look at you and they rely on you more for making technical choices on a whim and they’re looking at you for guidance and leadership. So, you always got to bring your A game every day.

Luke Pivac: I don’t know if that’s my perfectionist mind telling me, but the fact that I was (a), I had to prove, for my contract to renew and (b) I was being employed on a special consultancy fee. So, I had to perform. It made me I didn’t think that way and it was just basically clear the noise out and I got more focus and I became a lot more myopic in a good way on focusing on what’s task at hand and it was being quite ruthless but also you know applying some of what you’ve learned or you didn’t know but you did and it just all comes out so I had to do a lot of technical planning but I got into a routine and I actually got quite excited from it.

Luke Pivac: That experience was really enjoyable and memorable and I loved it, but thinking back now, doing that long term, I don’t know if it was sustainable but that experience will never leave me for the rest of my life and I, like I said, I went back into full time employment and I think I reaped the rewards of that experience because it was, a once in a lifetime experience for me.

Luke Pivac: Being in that environment gave me this pseudo authority that they probably wouldn’t listen to if I was a full-time employee as a Scrum Master. And people above the waterline kind of left me to it because I had a plan, they, I ran it past them they okayed it and they just let me run with it.

Luke Pivac: And a lot of my experience, maybe because I was a contractor, I had all ears listening to me and, and I was made sure I was available to provide guidance and that was really great experience. I enjoyed it.

[00:17:56] Adapting to Change: The Agile Way

Bill Raymond: Sometimes the need to stay on target, if you will, and make sure you get something done and trying to push that objective down through the teams. It’s very easy to get to a point where you break agility, where you don’t give the teams that breathing room that they need in order to make a decision and prioritize the work that they’re going to do.

Bill Raymond: Did you find any kind of challenges with that and how did you overcome them?

Luke Pivac: Stuff happens all the time. And if you’re not exactly agile if someone comes to you with something that just blows everything out of the water and you just go, oh, we’ll have to put it in the backlog. It’s a lot of too many people to say, oh, put it in the backlog and prioritize them.

Luke Pivac: But sometimes you’ve got to pull that lever and go, the stuff we’re working on. Yeah. Things have changed. The scope’s changed. Something’s happened. I could be COVID, or it could be the stakeholders decided to go for another platform. It could be a number of things. And it’s your ability to respond to that change that makes you agile, there’s no secret about it’s okay to follow a plan, but it’s your it’s your ability to respond to change that, makes yourself better. This is why the military to do drills all the time. And it’s like what. The way you do agile is you don’t practice, but as you do, you’ve got these, you’ve got these guardrails in place, like sprint planning, you’ve got your retro, you’ve got your daily standups.

Luke Pivac: These are your drills to learn from what you’ve done in the past. And as long as you’re not repeating the same things, cause you’re learning continuously all the time you become better at that. And that is through change.

Luke Pivac: So, a lot of that’s about being flexible. It’s about working through your sprints and reflecting and adapting on what went well and what didn’t. And over time, when the proverbial hits the fan, you become more open and more responsive to things. And looking at the big picture and saying it’s not what we can’t do, but what can we do in the constraints of time. And sometimes it might be having a hard conversation and that’s where thinking above the waterline and seeing what the company’s vision and their goals are helps you align with your team goals, and you know your own personal goals and it’s about adaptive leadership.

Luke Pivac: And if you look at that big picture and seeing where you’ve got shared goals and shared and common understanding, it helps streamline things. It is a process though.

Bill Raymond: We have a lot of leaders that listen to this podcast, people that are looking to bring agility into their organization or even just understand what it means.

Bill Raymond: Very often product teams, especially technical product teams, specifically. They have a tendency to know and understand what it is that we’re talking about.

Bill Raymond: The words sprint and user stories, they flow off their tongues every single day. But once you go above the team level and you get to the leadership level, not all organizations have adopted this same approach to how they manage their business.

Bill Raymond: So, when you become a leader and you’ve moved out of, if you will, this, this purely product based team based Agile environment, and you’re moving into a leadership position, there are some good things that come out of I’m going to do air quotes now "doing agility."

Bill Raymond: Oftentimes I’ve found that just helping leaders understand a little bit more about why the product teams work a certain way that can actually help them if they start working in a similar fashion. Are there any kind of improvements that you’ve seen working with your leadership peers to help, if you will, bridge that gap between how the leadership teams may work versus the product teams?

Luke Pivac: Yeah, I think I was, I’ve been blessed or fortunate enough to have, leaders above me have some understanding or about agility, but it’s probably more about the agile mindset especially with working with leaders above that, and they’ve got, multiple hats wearing all the time, and their time is poor and explaining the benefits of agility is probably more about the values, the principles are there, they can be taught and if you’re fortunate enough to have executives who can maybe read about Agility, and I imagine they have already, but having a common purpose or a shared understanding is highly important. So having that vision, that mission, and some understanding of the Agile framework is quite important.

Luke Pivac: And, think about those elevator pitches, those user stories, explaining to people simply what you work on. What are you working on? And it’s not just about, when you do your sprint planning and you’re writing those user stories It’s if anyone can look at your backlog and it should be open to it.

Luke Pivac: And it’s same with your roadmap because that comes from your backlog. Your roadmaps need to be something that you can show your stakeholders. And this is what we’re working on this quarter and next quarter. And they look at it and they go, oh, I get that. That means a lot to me and having gone through that process explaining the technical jargon into business speak is really powerful process and we can never have enough simplification of communication between the two worlds because that bridge is highly important and if you can master that you’re going to go very well for yourself and your organization.

Luke Pivac: Part of that. I would recommend having a shared understanding. So like I was talking about before getting some roadmaps up up and above. This is what the team’s working on. You don’t need to look at our backlog, but the essence of what your backlog is and the fundamentals those milestones. So this is what I talk about.

Luke Pivac: There’s confusion and being above the waterline. They do want milestones. This is a thing in project management, product management as well. And a lot of Agile teams, they work on the initiatives, they work on the effects, they work on the user stories. They don’t necessarily know the value of the point of milestones, but those milestones are your outcomes.

Luke Pivac: Those are your commitments. And that’s the roadmap. People above the waterline are looking at your team commit to. So, if you can find a way, whether it’s a ticketing system, whether it’s project management tool, or some information radiator, live data that people can look at.

Luke Pivac: Those milestones are your commitments to what you are committing to for the next quarter. When you see executives or people above the waterline’s faces when they see this lovely information radiator and it’s well planned, and they know because it’s agility.

Luke Pivac: We don’t know what’s around the corner, but this is the road map and this is what our vision is. That buys them a lot of confidence. A forward-thinking product owner, a forward thinking Scrum Master, forward thinking developer, Development team can see what’s on the horizon and start planning for it and being open to change.

Luke Pivac: That’s healthy. That’s ambitious. And that is shepherding the future. So hopefully that answers your question.

Bill Raymond: I fully understand what you’re saying.

[00:24:42] Advice for New Leaders in Agile Environment

Bill Raymond: We are recording this podcast at the top of the new year.

Bill Raymond: We know that January, February time period is when most companies hire new employees or employees get that boost in their job and suddenly they’re promoted and now they have more senior roles that they’re taking on. And I guess my question for you is, if someone’s coming into this new senior role, and they’re hearing you talk about working above the waterline.

Bill Raymond: What are some takeaways that people could use, if you will, today to start thinking a little bit differently about their role that might be fairly new to them.

Luke Pivac: Yeah, absolutely focus on building those relationships. When I was a Scrum Master, I always talked about community of practice or having a network of likeminded people. Talk to your fellow Scrum Masters, product owners have a chapter, they might have a guild, whatever you call it, a professional development group where they can share experiences and, and Knowledge.

Luke Pivac: Do that networking. It’s similar to working whenever you’re above the waterline. You’ve got to reach out to compliance champions, to risk managers, to product managers to other agile coaches. It’s about building those relationships and networking and instead of working in a scrum team, you’re working in a scrum of scrums team.

Luke Pivac: So that’s working with likeminded individuals. It’s probably more about running high level planning meetings as opposed to a planning session. So that’s basically working with other product owners and seeing what your shared goals are, seeing where you’re aligned to that. Are you on track or you’re not?

Luke Pivac: There’ll probably be a lot more high-level reporting to go through. So just to break it down and keep it simple, because there’s a lot to unpack there. Focus on milestones and outcomes. Outcomes, just like you worked with your sprint team, but this is for the bigger pieces of work, i. e. for your EPIC.

Luke Pivac: What does that EPIC align to? It’ll probably align to an initiative. It’ll probably align to a program. And within that, EPIC will be, and Program will be some milestones that you need to commit to and deliver. And those are your outcomes.

Luke Pivac: You need to move the needle, like from delivering you might be off track, program might have gone from green to amber. You need to, get a change plan in there to get it back on track. You need to start thinking more tactically and strategically how to get not just on track, but to see what the next big thing is.

Luke Pivac: And that’s about broadening your scope. And it’s about looking outside of your hemisphere and seeing what the blind spots are. And you can only do that by having higher level meetings, building those relationships with your project managers, program managers, architects, the wider group and having a framework that comes in through with that.

Luke Pivac: There’s things like compliance and Regulatory commitments that you need to make. This is why being above the waterline isn’t just about being agile. It’s about being tactical. It’s about being strategic. And it’s about working with the framework that the organization has tried to try to enhance, but using an agile mindset to do that.

Luke Pivac: And that’s about having a growth mindset about learning what by doing and then reflecting and changing things that didn’t work for the better. It’s about building strategic relationships and building relationships with other people and maintaining it for the betterment of the organization. And it’s about probably having some SMART goals and KPIs within your milestones, within your epics, as opposed to the user stories and tasks that you might originally, have been working with and then at the end of the day, it’s trying to paint a bigger picture.

Luke Pivac: So, make sure that you’ve you know, have a picture drawn up before you share it and it’s your strategic goals. Sometimes it’s good to look into the company research, having a look at what the vision is, what the mission is, having a look at your existing program and your initiatives and seeing how well described they are.

Luke Pivac: This is the beauty about being new in a position. You’ve got fresh eyes and you’ve got your own experience. It’s maybe it’s a good time to look at what currently is there and the documentation and the information radiators and trying to ask someone to explain it to you if you don’t understand and calling things out because sometimes people have been doing it for a long time, take things for granted and they lose that big picture view. So, if you’re new, start questioning because you’ve got, you’ve got like maybe, I don’t know, a few couple of months grace to ask questions. Use it, be a clean slate. Ask these things and half the time you’ll be adding value because these people have overlooked it.

Luke Pivac: So, use that ability of being new to question the status quo and you learn at the same time.

[00:29:26] Conclusion and Contact Information

Bill Raymond: Well, Luke Pivac, that’s a great way to wrap up this conversation. I really appreciate the time that you have spent with us today. Before we wrap up though, could you share if it’s okay, if someone reaches out to you to further this conversation?

Luke Pivac: Oh absolutely, they can contact me on LinkedIn it’s just my name, Luke Pivac just put in the search bar, you’ll find it.

Bill Raymond: Great. And I’ll also make sure that we share links to your book. And we did a lot of conversation today around Scrum and user stories and a lot of terms like that. So, I will also share some useful podcasts that you might also want to check out from the Agile in Action podcast. And I’ll put those all, including Luke’s contact information from LinkedIn into thehttps://agileinaction.com website. And of course, I’ll make sure that I put that into the show notes, the description of any kind of podcast app or video player that you’re watching this podcast on right now. Luke, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Luke Pivac: Thank you, and thank you listeners, thank you for your time, I enjoyed it.

Speaker: Thank you for listening to the Agile in Action Podcast with Bill Raymond. Subscribe now to stay current on the latest trends in team, organization, and agile techniques. Please take a moment to rate and comment to help us grow our community. This podcast is produced in affiliation with Cambermast LLC, and our executive producer is Reama Dagasan.

Speaker: If there is a topic you would like Bill to cover, contact him directly at Bill.Raymond@agileinaction.com.