About this podcast episode

Integrate DesignOps to unlock the full potential of your team and craft products that make a genuine impact.

In today’s podcast, Marya Triandafellos defines DesignOps principles to improve your products and increase team efficiency.

Throughout the podcast, Marya and Bill share stories and ideas that will help familiarize you with DesignOps and how it can help your organization.

In this podcast, you will learn the following:

✅ The importance of design

✅ The definition of DesignOps

✅ The three pillars of DesignOps success

🎉 How to introduce DesignOps into your organization


(transcripts are auto-generated, so please excuse the brevity)

[00:00:00] Intro

Speaker: Welcome to the Agile in Action Podcast with Bill Raymond. Bill will explore how business disruptors are adopting agile techniques to gain a competitive advantage in this fast-paced technology driven market.​

Bill Raymond: Hi, and welcome to the podcast. Today I’m joined by Marya Triandafellos, author, speaker, and visual artist. Hi Marya. How are you today?

Marya Triandafellos: Good. Bill, how are you? Thanks so much for having me on this awesome podcast. I’ve been a listener for a while and it’s just really great to be here today.

Bill Raymond: Oh, that’s wonderful. I can not wait to have this conversation. One of the things that we talk about on this podcast a lot, especially when we’re talking about agile teams, everyone always says "the developers".

We have teams that are working in different departments and divisions, but we always seem to use that word. And one of the things that we have on teams is a diverse group of people, and some of those people are designers. But what we’re going to talk about today is design ops, and you are going to introduce us to the concept, and I’m really looking forward to it.

Before we get started, could you share a little bit about yourself?

[00:01:23] Who is Marya Triandafellos?[00:01:23] Who is Marya Triandafellos

Marya Triandafellos: Sure. I am a design ops consultant, I’m also a fine artist. And I got started in my career as a designer with my own design boutique, and I did design work for small companies as well as large corporations, and one of my clients was American Express. And through them I heard about an opportunity there to start up an in-house design team, which I did for five years. And it was a really great experience.

And since then I started my own consulting business for design ops and building products, as well as doing some fine art. Some of my clients are Marriott Tapestry and Etsy.

Bill Raymond: That’s cool. And I, by the way, I’ve had an opportunity to look at some of your artwork and it’s really beautiful. You do some stunning work.

Marya Triandafellos: Thank you so much.

[00:02:11] About product design teams

Bill Raymond: Yeah. Now we’re going to be talking about design ops, but maybe the best way to start is to talk about what are product designers?

Marya Triandafellos: Sure. So product designers work in concert with the engineers or developers and the product leads. So the three of them are really what sometimes is referred to as the three-legged stool that make up the team that is creating an app or website or an application. And the three work together. And so the product design team, those are the folks that have a design background in user experience design, in user interfacing design and visual design.

All three different expertise would be on the team, and that team is working to develop the design part ofthose products.

[00:03:03] What are some of the things the designers might design?

Bill Raymond: So what might that look like? What are some of the things that they might design?

Marya Triandafellos: So they might design well, they’re going to design anything you see, anything that you’re visually looking at, the product design team will do, and they’re going to work with the developer to make sure that the code behind that and the interactivity behind that will be working properly.

Bill Raymond: So when you open up an app and you see the blue slider instead of the green slider and you see the format and the layout of what the app looks like, those are the product designers.

Marya Triandafellos: Exactly, yes.

Bill Raymond: And then the developers just make it look like what the designer laid out.

Marya Triandafellos: Yeah. And there’s really a symbiotic relationship when things are working well with all three. So the product designer is having a vision and a strategy and also kind of representing the business side of things, making sure that this thing is going to deliverquantitatively what the business needs.

The designers will use that design thinking approach to make sure that they understand what the challenge is and how to get to an outcome.

[00:04:10] What you mean by design ops?

Bill Raymond: Very cool. And now that we know what a designer is, can you define what you mean by design Ops

Marya Triandafellos: Sure. So design ops is really the infrastructure that’s needed for that product design team to work efficiently and effectively, and have the team be a very happy team as they’re doing that work and work well with the other partners in addition to their own work, being able to work across with the engineers and the developers.

[00:04:41] First Pillar: process, systems and tools

Marya Triandafellos: If you want to break it down, there’s three main pillars. I like to look at it that way. You may talk to other professionals in the field and they might use other language to describe this or describe it in other ways, but I think of it as process systems and tools. That’s the first pillar.

Then we have the team or the people in the team, and lastly, we have the craft or the craft of design. So let’s dig a little deeper into each one of those. So the processes systems and tools, that’s really about assessing them. The design ops person would be: when do we need these things? Doing the research to find out more about it, actually implementing them and then managing them and optimizing them, as time goes on.

For example, design ops person might say: the team needs some kind of tool to help them manage their daily tasks. So they would investigate, what kind of task manager might be needed, and talk to the team and figure out what they need and maybe do a little pilot and test it out and see if it’s working well for the team.

Another thing they might do is examine a current like workflow that’s part of the process and say like, let’s put this on paper and see how it’s working. Does everybody know how this goes? Or how can we optimize it or make it better or more efficient?

[00:06:01] Second pillar: the team, the people

Marya Triandafellos: And then we might go into the team or the people.

So here we’re going to think about as design ops folks, what is the organizational structure of this team? And we want to think about all these things. No matter what the size of the team is, I want to throw that in there, even if it’s one person, this one person should be thinking aboutthese core pillars, even if you’re just starting out a team.

So for the team, you’re thinking of that organizational structure, the roles that would be in that team, and do you have the right people in those roles? So a couple of things as design up folks, we might do in that second pillar, we might work with the HR team and make sure that we have like an onboarding process that is coherent and efficient.

Or we might figure out that the team has some training gaps. So we might put a training program together, and that could be like functional, like how do you use Figma? Make sure everyone’s at the same level of skill using Figma. Or it could be a soft skill. Something likeconflict management if you see the team is having a hard time managing tough situations that they get into.

[00:07:12] Third pillar: the craft of design

Bill Raymond: Right. And can we talk a little bit about the craft as well?

Marya Triandafellos: Sure. So the craft is, that’s actually the design itself. So in craft we’re wanting to make sure the team is inspired, that they have the proper guidelines that they need, and that there’s like governance around all of that as well. So, for example,most teams will havesome semblance of a design system.

And a design system is a, a combination of essentially three components. You have digital assets and those are what you would create in Figma, the button or the module, a carousel or something like that, a checkoutbox. And thenyou would also have the code that supports those visual digital assets.

And then you have instructions around that. How to use it and when to use it.

So all of those things would be part of the design system, and that would be part of the craft. Another thing you might want in terms of the supporting the craft is making sure that your team is following the same usability requirements, created by the WC3 organization.

Each company kind of interprets them a little bit differently, so you want to make sure that your team is working with those same kind of goals in mind. Something like the contrast level between yourpalette, making sure that there’s enough contrast between the text and the background or between images in the background.

Bill Raymond: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. Sometimes you could come up with a great design, but you never took into consideration the fact that people might have site issues or be colorblind, and those usability guidelines just have to stay front and center while you’re doing your design, don’t they?

Marya Triandafellos: Absolutely. And there’s today,that part of things has become more important and evolved. So there are tools that we can use to help us in the QA process to make sure that those things are working properly and we are hitting and getting reports on, you know, where the challenging spots are.

Bill Raymond: Right. So I think this is an interesting conversation. I don’t want to get into software development here, really, but I do think that there’s, I feel like we have talked about in this podcast overother podcast interviews we’ve talked about DevOps and the whole concept behind DevOps is really taking the software developers usually would be on the team, and then they’d hand off their software to some QA team, and then they’d hand off their software to some infrastructure team, and there’s all these handoffs and everyone just kind of gets to wipe their hands clean. And say, well, my job is done, because those people now have to handle it.

And what they’ve done is they said that they’ve used this whole term called Shift left now, where the software developers and the QA people and the infrastructure people are all on the same team, even some of them play many roles.

Now, what you are defining here in terms of design ops, and we’re going to talk about organizational structure in just a little bit, but what we’re really talking about is whether they’re on the team or not on the team.

This is making sure that the designers have the tools and the training and the support that they need so that they can get their job done better. Is that what I’m hearing?

Marya Triandafellos: Exactly. I know we were planning on talking about it maybe a little later, but I think it’d be good to talk about it here on kind of how design ops came about. It is relatively new compared to, say DevOps or even Creative ops.

I was finding some mixed information about where the first sightings of Design ops were like early 2010s or a little later.

But we do know that the term design ops was coined by someone named Dave Malouf, who’s a Design ops practitioner in 2014. So it’s relatively a new discipline. But it seems like each discipline is getting their own ops now in this product world, right? It started with the, I would say creative ops then, because that was before we had digital, even in the old advertising days it really started there, now we have research ops and we have marketing ops. So each field is really finding the need for this infrastructure layer. With an expertise around whatever that discipline is that’s really helping facilitate the work of the doers so to speak. Or the experts that are the designers or the marketing folks or whatever, because things have gotten so complicated and move so quickly.

We don’t want the people with those expertise worrying about the kind of more management parts or infrastructure parts of things. It was a little different, I’d say with like creative operations because there was never a question in the ad world that someone else had to be managing a schedule because there are really tight and hard deadlines in, say, producing a TV commercial. You can’t expect that the person coming up with the storyboard is going to figure out like, you know, when to submit and deliver all this stuff. And there was also a lot of different vendors involved in ad agencies and even in the print world.

So the designers really weren’t expected to be that person, to coordinate all those things. And even in the beginning of product design teams, they were smaller, so they were kind of able to manage those communications with product or engineering, and they didn’t need that other layer yet.

But as these teams grew really big into the hundreds, it just became impractical.

Bill Raymond: And also we know that context switching just hurts productivity. We have meetings, of course, that we go to. We get interrupted in during the day on our teams or our Slack and emails and phone calls and texts and things like that, but then you’re trying to do some creativity and you’re struggling because you don’t have the tools that you need.

You don’t have the capabilities that are required in order to properly communicate where you’re going with something. You’re not able to maybe collaborate with other designers. All these tools and infrastructure are available to you, but if someone doesn’t make that available and train you on it and provide you with a suite of processes, tools and best practices, things like that, I can imagine that every single time you start work on something, it feels like you’re starting it new and not really kind of following some sort of a embedded process.

Marya Triandafellos: Bill. Really, that’s exactly you hit it on the head there because, one of the challenges you have in the creative process is that focus time and these great ideas and great inventions don’t come out of the distracted world. They don’t come about if you are answering a Slack message every minute, or hearing a ding or a bing. So yeah, that focus time, especially in the creative field, I think is very important and it’s part of the design ops person’s role to, in a sense, protect the creative team and give them that space to be able to focus and make sure they’re not spending a half an hour looking for a file or whatever.

[00:14:25] What a design ops organizational structure would look like

Bill Raymond: We talked about the role of a product designer, and we’ve talked about design ops and a little bit of the history. Can you share what the org structure looks like? I think you kind of already mentioned that it could be different depending on where you go, but could you give some sort of a sense as to what a design ops organizational structure would look like?

Marya Triandafellos: Sure. So, as we mentioned, it’s going to vary a lot from company to company, depending on a lot of factors like size, the maturity of the design org and the stage of the company, whether it’s like a startup or a big corporation. But essentially you’re going to have three different options for how that design team can be structured.

So the first one is centralized, so that’s really just having this design team that is accepting in requests to execute something. So, hopefully not just execute, but start at the beginning of a project and use a design thinking approach to solve it. And there might be some kind of intake system or some kind of ritualized meetings or whatever, however they want to manage that relationship and communication with product and engineering. The second option is called embedded, and that’s when the designer is plunked right into the team with product and engineering, and they’re a steady team that is, they’re kind of the designer’s kind of reporting there as opposed to some big design team.

And the design team overall will have times when they meet and coordinate and share best practices, et cetera. But the day-to-day kind of experience happens and embedded with the Agile team.

And then** the third option is flexible**, where you’d have a little bit of both. And that’s more like situational.

On a larger kind of company. Might need both of those kind of ways to engage with their partners. May be a complex product, the designer gets embedded because it takes a long time for them to really understand that product and build the relationship of trusting relationship with product and engineering.

And for something more like enhancements or issues that could work better in like a ticketing system in a centralized form.

Bill Raymond: So there’s going to be times when an organization maybe doesn’t have a lot of Need for product designers, so they centralize it. And then we’ve got teams that are rocking and rolling, going real fast. And they need to have those product designers embedded. And then I guess the flexible would be something that’s maybe more along the lines of we’ll make it work however we need to.

Is that what you’re saying?

Marya Triandafellos: Yeah. Pretty much I would say in those other factors, we’ll come in to figure out like how, and how those things are set up originally and how they might need to change over time as well. As we’ve seen in the tech business things expand and contract pretty quickly in a moment’s notice.

So those, all of those things will certainly impact how the team is structured and how people might have to do additional roles.

Speaking of the roles, in general, you’re going to have a. a structure where there’s like a head of design or head of product design, or it could be a VP, whatever the actual title is, but some sort of leader of that team.

And then you’re going to have folks that work on the actual product side and then you’re going to have the design ops folks. So usually the product side’s going to be much bigger and you’ll have product design, maybe director that leads a bunch of managers and then the managers lead the designers.

And then on the product side, you’re having like program managers. It’s a smaller company you’ll have like one program manager for all the design ops, otherwise it could break out into specialties, maybe around those three pillars we talked about. So you might have the program manager for team or whatever.

[00:18:21] What would a head of product design do?

Bill Raymond: I guess I’m just curious what would a head of product design do?

I know that you said overall strategy, but I want to get inside of the head of product design for a moment.

Marya Triandafellos: So the head of product design they’re going to work closely with the design ops for sure, because they’re going to want to make sure if before the Design ops person is in the room, they have to think about these structural or foundational things. And the strategy of like, what kind of team are we building here?

How are we going to keep the team inspired and fresh and engaged? What are theways we want to make sure that the team grows within itself, like for coaching or mentorship. So they’re really going to look to be the leader of all of those designers and inspire them and ensure their career development and ensure that the structure in the organization facilitates them moving up and helping others on the team in this like nice, virtuous cycle.

Bill Raymond: I was kind of curious how separate the design ops organization would be from the product design organization.

Marya Triandafellos: Yes. It’s in there, it’s part of it. So the design ops would be under the head of product design. And that head of product design is also acting as sort of the liaison between senior management and the design team. So they’re conveying like what the business is doing overall to, to that team so that they understand and are motivated in, in their direct

Bill Raymond: ion.

Can we talk a little bit about how the design team works together to build the product?

Marya Triandafellos: In most cases a team is going to be working on an existing product. The other option is they’re building something from scratch, something brand new. Let’s just use an example of building a new shoe app for women’s shoes.

So what the team would do to start is use a design thinking process that’s based on divergent and convergent thinking that we call double diamond.

So it’s actually, if you look at a picture of it’s like two diamonds like this next to each other, and this is representing the divergent and then the convergent thinking in both halfs of that diamond.

Thankfully our double diamond, double D, is reflected in our four stages of the double diamond, which are discover, define, develop and deliver. So we can dig in a little further on each one of those.

For discover, what the team is going to want to do is, first come up with some kind of hypothesis and then explore that.

Now, they’re going to give it their best shot the first time. So maybe they’re thinking, oh, women don’t want to buy shoes online because they can’t try them on. So they might start there, but they don’t want that to hold them into that, lock them into that thought. So they’re just using it to kind of spark their research work. there’s many tools they have at their disposal at this stage, but one of them might be interviews, so they might interview existing women shoe buyers, and also interview women who do not buy shoes online at all, hear what they have to say and then document all of this.

And then they might take all that and do what’s called a card sort, where they’ll organize all of their responses into different themes and try to understand like, okay, are we finding some similarities here? And then ultimately they’re going to converge that into the next stage, which is defined.

And they’ll come up with whatever that hypothesis was. They’re going to refine that based on the true information that they’ve received from the research that they’ve done. And then we go back to the diverge **again, and that’s going to be in the **develop stage. So they’re going to explore all sorts of ideas of how to come up with a solution for that definition that they came to. And what they might do there is most likely start with a brainstorming type session. And there’s many different varieties of brainstorming and they have templates in different kind of whiteboarding tools like mural and Miro,

I couldn’t say that 10 times fast. Or in Figma, they have some templates there. So the team would try to work with a bunch of different stakeholders in this brainstorming session and see what they could come up with and maybe then create some kind of prototype and test that out with a small group and then iterate on that.

And then when they’re ready to go out to the real world with their minimal viable product or their MVP they’ll be in the last stage of delivery. And so they’ll get that out into the world, but they’ll still be evolving that and iterating on that. Andkind of looping back around.

Bill Raymond: All right, so there’s a nice process that gets followed there. And I remember one of my very first projects where I was working with designers, and this is many years ago, back when websites were becoming super popular and they were starting to become advanced enough that you could program them.

When the internet first came out, it was a bunch of pages, right? And then you could start attaching databases to it, and then you could actually start doing design work. And I remember we had designers on the team and that was never something I was familiar with before. And of course, we wanted to just get the software development going, right?

We wanted to build the website. And when you’re buying wine, well, every state has its own requirements and then even every zip code has its requirements. I remember I was living in Massachusetts and I lived in a dry town. I don’t know why it was a dry town, but it was, and I could go to the corner of my town and any corner where it shifts over far from one town to another, and there would be a liquor store and a wine store, and I could pick up the wine.

So the wine company that I was working with that was building the site could not ship me wine, but they could ship my neighbor wine.

Marya Triandafellos: Oh my gosh. That’s crazy.

Bill Raymond: Yeah. And I remember very specifically when the team started to fall apart. We of course got ourselves back together again and things like that, but it was specifically because there were so many business rules that I think we didn’t know because we were coming into this market fairly blind.

the process and the details of all these little logistics, started to take over what the design folks were trying to do. And you can do a lot of those things without the user ever seeing it. Right? And I think that if we had followed more of this process iteratively as we’re going, instead of saying, okay, thanks for the design, we’ll do this and then we’ll come back and check in with you occasionally.

Had we all been working on that together, following this discover, define, develop, deliver Process that’s iterative that you just brought up. I feel like our project would’ve been a lot more successful sooner.

Marya Triandafellos: Yeah, honestly, Bill, even today there’s challenges with companies acknowledging that we need some kind of process like this and giving the time for it. It’s a lot of times it’s just like, get it done, get it done, kind of mentality in companies. And evenDesign Ops colleague of mine posted yesterday on Linkedin saying some companies still are not acknowledging the value of design and giving us the time to go through these processes and doing things the right way because you’re going to end up in the end, like you, it seems like you experience that it’s going to be more work in the end instead of putting that time upfront.

It’s just really hard for people to do that sometimes of like recognizing that effort in the beginning is much more valuable than waiting till trying to rush through it and having to redo things in the end.

Bill Raymond: Yeah, for sure. I think apps are a good example of this. How many times do you go into an app to book a flight or go to a bank or check your stocks or things like that. Some of those apps are just really easy to get around. You can immediately see the things that you’re looking for.

And then the other ones kind of feel like someone slapped a user interface together, and I’m sure that there were designers involved in all of those, but I think when you take the step back and you really think about it, that’s where you start to see real design come through. And I feel like those are the apps that you will naturally go back to more frequently.

[00:26:50] The importance of Design Ops

Marya Triandafellos: McKenzie came out with a study that said the company that are doing better are the ones that are more sophisticated with their design and value design more, and they’re getting higher revenue and they’re also supplying more returns to their shareholders.

So I think that was a really big turning point. But still, as mentioned, you know, there’s still like a lot of work that needs to be done.

And a lot of what the Design Ops folks should be doing is, is helping elevate the value of design in their organizations.

Bill Raymond: Let’s talk a little bit about that. What is their role in this change management as you’re planning to implement Design Ops?

Marya Triandafellos: That’s a great question because a lot of times change management is overlooked and just thought of it the last minute, but it’s very important to think of that in the beginning of any initiative because mostly what we’re doing in Design Ops is we’re either creating something new, which means change or changing something that exists… change again.

So it’s important to plan these things out from the start and say what’s our timetable on this? What other impacts is this going to have? How are we going to communicate this? What are the resistors to this going to say and how can we appease them? How can we get them on board? And what kind of training might we need and what do we have to do to get that out there?

So really just embedding that from the very beginning is super important.

[00:28:21] Turning point

Bill Raymond: Okay, so you’re trying to help define what Design Ops does and sell them on the process. So usually it’s easier to do that when there is some turning point. So what are some of those things that might rear their ugly head that says you know, maybe maybe we need to start implementing Design Ops in our organization.

Marya Triandafellos: So when that happens, it’s either you as maybe the head of design or in some other role on the design team are starting to notice these things. Or you can be hearing complaints from the designers themselves. So you might see missed deadlines or you might see a degradation in the quality of the work, or the design team might have confusion or frustration around certain processes or be asking for, gee, why can’t we have this tool? Everyone else is using it and my peers are using it. And worst of all, you might start seeing a high turnover where folks are like, oh, I’ve had enough. I’m getting out of here.

Bill Raymond: Yeah, I understand. I think those are some of the common things that you would see to basically sell a role. And I think actually that’s pretty important though, because once you start seeing missed deadlines and low quality work, we all know what happens next. People just get burnt out.

They don’t feel like they’re being seen, they feel like they are on an island by themselves, and they start to check out or maybe the quality of work can go down. It’s really hard to be on an effective team if you know everyone else has their tools and their processes and you’re kind of stuck trying to figure this out every day.

Marya Triandafellos: I try to always look for in the Design Ops world, what can we do that’s not disruptive to get some kind of quantitative information. It’s a little easier getting the qualitative information we can always speak to folks, and get surveys out there, but to get actual data we’re going to need some things to track something and we don’t really want to disrupt the designers flow too much.

So I try to look for ways like what’s already there that we can use. So, I was trying to build the case for a knowledge management system, and I just went back over three years of Slackconversations through our team channels and looking for certain keywords like, where can I find, or whatever.

And just found like this enormous amount of dialogue and questioning around, like looking for files. And it was just a really easy way to say, okay, I found like whatever a hundred requests for this one file, can we just centralize it somewhere, put it somewhere, that kind of thing. It’s really important to do those, try to automate things is like the sort of angle, really reduce those unpleasant things or things that nobody really wants to do.

And just being able to continue to build and evolve the creativity that we all have on those teams.

Bill Raymond: I’m picturing you going through those three years worth of chats and I was just thinking, you could have just done a select all, and then just pasted that into GPT and said what are some of we’re having?

Marya Triandafellos: Well, I’ll tell you, I think that as we go forward, I am definitely looking for how AI will help us with these mundane, repeatable tasks that we don’t really want to do. And that, as you put it, distract us and make us multitask where we don’t want to. So thinking of the whole creative process, it would be really interesting to see what kind of products will come out on top of the AI that will help us work through each of thosedouble diamond stages and help us going forward.

Bill Raymond: Yeah, it’s going to be interesting to see what happens. I have a feeling there’s going to be a lot of creativity coming out of this very soon, but as we’re wrapping up the conversation, someone might be listening to this podcast right now and say, you know, I am hearing the signs that maybe we need to have a Design Ops element in our organization, whether it’s a whole team or even a person.

What are some of the steps that you take to get to that point where you know what you need to do in order to bring on the right Design Ops team.

Marya Triandafellos: I would use a design thinking approach in assessing this, of course. But in a simple way to approach it might be take those three pillars that I mentioned and put all of the functions or attributes under each one of those that are relevant to it. Some of them that I mentioned earlier, do we have a good onboarding process under team? Or under processes, do we have a good task manager? And just label out these things. And then assign a red, green or yellow to each of them. Do green, we have it, it’s running well. Yellow, we kind of have something but it could be optimized and red we don’t have anything yet. And then take an agile approach and just take all of those requirements, prioritize them, put them in a backlog, make a roadmap for it, and talk to your team and find out when you’re doing that prioritization and say like, what is really preventing you from doing your job in a efficient, effective, and joyful way? What’s really giving you a pain in the neck every day?

Let’s look at those things first. Andit may be one of the yellows, not a red, you never know. Like it might be just something that’s just not quite there in that, that less step to do it right would make all the difference. So, just taking that, making a gap analysis of here we are today with the missing reds and yellows and we want this whole page to be green eventually And just seeing where to go from there.

Bill Raymond: That’s great advice. Thank you, Marya Triandafellos, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate the time that you’ve spent with us today. If anyone wants to continue this conversation with you, how might they be able to reach you?

Marya Triandafellos: Yeah, just reach out to me on Linkedin,

I’ll make sure that your Linkedin link is provided on the agileinaction.com website. And of course, if you’re listening to this podcast in an app right now, just scroll down to the show notes and description and you’ll see Marya’s link there. Once again, Marya Triandafellos, I really appreciate this conversation today.

Bill Raymond: Thank you so much for your time.

Marya Triandafellos: Thank you, Bill. It’s been really great.

[00:34:44] Outro

Bill Raymond: Thank you for listening to the Agile and Action Podcast with Bill Raymond. Subscribe now to stay current on the latest trends in team, organization, and agile techniques. Please take a moment to rate and comment to help us grow our community. This podcast is produced in affiliation with Cambermast LLC, and our executive producer is Reama Dagasan.

Speaker: If there is a topic you would like Bill to cover, contact him directly at bill.Raymond@agileinaction.com.